「艺言难尽/Speak No More」艺术还是龙舌兰

访谈对话 Dialogue

Zachariah Zhou : Okay, Panos. Let's get it started.  Let's do that for this exhibition. We do see a you're creating some of the most of the works are like uh.  Not from the original I your previous works, some most of the works are pretty new, actually, right? Most of them.  I really want to ask you what is your criteria for your own working methodology or like your what makes a good art to you. When you do your practice.

渣克周：好，帕诺斯，我们开始吧！在这个展览里，我们看到你创造的大多数作品都不同于以往你以往的作品，一些作品事实上它们大多，我想问的是什么是你标准你工作的方法论对你来说，什么是好的艺术？当你做艺术的时候。

Panos：yeah, I there is there are. There are like four or,  five levels of criteria that I have down to when these levels are satisfied and i'm satisfied as well. What are those potentially hierarchical speaking as well? First of all, it's about the constitutionality of the work. It's all about the idea. The idea is extremely important to me. The idea is something that I work for for for a long time. So it is something, the first criterion is something that it needs to be a great, the conceptual level of satisfaction to me.  At the same time, because I play with many layers, there is another criteria that has to do with uh, the critical there has to be a critical message that is coming out of this concept.

帕诺斯：是的，有的，有大概四五个层面的标准当这些标准得到满足，我也很满足，如果要按先后顺序讲的话，首先   是作品的构成性，作品的构成性这一点，这一点对我来说异常重要，这一点我一直在为之努力，这个标准需要达标，在观念层面上使我满意，同时，因为我琢磨许多层面，还有一个标准就是要有批判性，从观念之中传达出来。

Zachariah Zhou：What can, you elaborate on that?

渣克周：能具体说说吗？

Panos：The idea is that they, in order for me to elaborate, I need to talk to you about how I do that. So we're talking about a heavily semiotic and conceptual communication kind of uh, yeah, art work practice, right? That is first has to do with inspired by semiotics. We're talking about the idea of a duality of a piece of work, between form and content, between the physicality of it. What it communicates there in the meaning behind it.Yes. If we are to see this duality, and we see that uh if we have to extend this in a bigger, meaning bigger and more ideological kind of way of me yes. It is thinking about how,   objects are meant to communicate things. I'm going to communicate things. So if you have the idea of between the duality between object and idea, then we're looking at it as in the broader contemporary context, we are so much surrounded by objects. We are much more about physicality of the objects and also the objects down for a materialistic reception of the world. So the idea of materialism, the idea of being overflown by objects, makes me want to use objects, the way I use them by rendering them useless, hijacking the objects in order not to be what meant to be. I focus on the meaning, on the disregard that society has about the ideas, about meaningless. The logic that in today's world with so much money realistic with so much as surrounded by objects. So that creates a lot of intimacy about them. We are very close to them, but at the same time, we're focusing on the objects themselves and not what the objects mean or what the objects can signify the idea behind the object, the meanings, behind the objects, the values, if you like, behind the objects, by focusing on the objects. I play with the duality that I actually and you can see there are a lot of objects here, but it's not about materialistic by hijacking them. I render the meaning behind objects much more important from trying to restore violence, between meaning and object, between material and spiritual, between the signified and the signifier precisely.

帕诺斯：那就是具体来说的话，我得跟你讲讲我是怎么做出来的，我们在聊的其实非常符号学，非常观念，对，这种艺术实践第一点就是被符号学所启发，我们在谈论的是作品的二重性，在形式与内容之间，在物理性与其背后的意义之间，对这种二重性如果我们把它扩大，扩大它的意义和意识形态，它考虑的就是，物如何与物沟通，我试图沟通物，所以有二重性的观念，在物与观念之间我们就会处在更广阔的当代视野中，我们如此深地被物所包围，我们关注的更多的是物的物理性，对世界的物质主义的接受，物质主义，被物所压倒，让我这样来使用物，将之无用化劫持它们，让我们失去原来的意义，我关注意义是这样的，社会有关于观念的一些意义在今天这个世界，充斥着钱、充斥着物，它们与我们十分亲密，亲密无间，但同时我们关注的是物本身，而不是物背后的意义或者物所指示的背后的观念，物背后的意义和价值它们在物背后，通过聚焦于物我玩弄着这种二重性，你可以看到，这里有很多物，但我的“劫持”不是物质主义的我试图使物背后的意义，要更加重要，我试图恢复意义与物之间，物与精神之间，所指与能指之间的张力。 

Zachariah Zhou：Yes. I see, how would you describe this? How would you describe this experience of uh working with the space and with the your pieces being located into this site? How would you describe this? This experience? Is there any difficulties or any say the concept comes, but to say the the mhm, the work or the material, or the site or the people doesn't satisfy your standards.   

渣克周：对，我知道，你如何描述呢？你如何描述这种经验与我们空间合作，把你的作品放置于此，你如何描述这种经验？有没有什么困难或者说有新点子？比如说作品与物、空间、人有没有能让你满意的？

Panos：It is a matter I and I if you look at that little object there there, my notebook, that's my studio. So when the idea happens and it's a funny story, okay, I say oh. A made a concept. I'm very satisfied with this concept. I go shit. Now I have to do it. I actually have to make it. Ha ha. There are two…If we're talking about an exhibition level, there are three stages of the work. The first word, the first stage of the work is creating the idea behind the concept,behind finding all these meanings, creating the text positions behind the meanings of satisfy all these previous criteria. And then it's actually the idea of making the world, making the process of creating of materializing a concept can have many different variations. Yeah. The process itself is very playful. If especially because I'm coming from a semiotic perspective, there are infinite amounts of means for stating an idea. Mhm.  Sometimes that process keeps a little different spin to the idea as well. There is this concept as well. This is the second layer. The third layer is when you're talking about where the pieces go to, and that also has another third layer of tertiary signification that can come into it.  

帕诺斯：这个的话,比如说你看这个,我的小本子，它是我的工作室，当有新想法的时候，很有意思，“好耶！”我说，“我有新点子了。” 我对这个想法很满意，“好吧，我得去做了。” 事实上我必须这样，哈哈，有两个……如果我们说的是展览的话，就有三个层面，首先，第一个层面是，作品要在概念背后创造一种观念，在已知的意义你背后创造一种语境，在意义背后，满足之前的所有标准，然后就是创造一个世界，是这样一个过程，使概念物质化，可能有很多种方法，对，这个过程本身是很有趣的，尤其是因为我是从符号学角度出发的，有许多方法来展现这个观念，对，有时候这个过程也会难产，这就是第二层，第三层就是作品往何处去，这就是第三层它通向的意义。

Zachariah Zhou：To give you an example, doing this here, the space, the vastness of space, they told, had an influence in how I bring to life these pieces. So it did influence. It also comes into place. So it is a combination of all these three variants that create the actual exhibition experience. You mentioned concept. You mentioned concept first, right? The first stage is concept. My question is as a conceptual artist since conceptual artist right now is like a very widely, I know, yes, it's being used a lot and also like uh people in the art world use it as a very daily, very normal language like. So the concept, how would you say like or how would you say, how would you define a concept like, what is a concept? What makes a concept conceptual artist, a conceptual artist, instead of say, installation artist?

渣克周：比如说，在这里，这个空间做作品，赋予作品生命，空间确实会有影响，作品进入空间，它结合了所有的三个方面，创造真实的看展经验，你说到了“观念”，“观念”，对吗？第一层是“观念”，我的问题是，作为一名观念艺术家，因为观念艺术家现在广为流传，我知道，对，它被用得很广，在艺术家非常常见，在日常语言中，所以，“观念”，你觉得你怎么界定“观念”呢？“观念”是什么？是什么构成让一个观念艺术家，成为一个观念艺术，而不是比如说，装置艺术家。

Panos：It is a bit of both of course but. The idea of the concept, again, it goes back to the derivative, the relationship between objects and meanings. Yeah. But it is bringing ideas into play uh using real objects that mean something to people to the audience. So my primary idea, my primary aid is to create a communication. Context between artwork, an audience. At the same time me being the artist, I realized that I am the creator, but I am very empathic. I have a lot of empathy in respect about the relationship that if we look at the triangle, a a neurodocument triangle between artists, artwork, and audience, the artist creates an artwork. But for using post structural postalism theory, the power lies within the audience. The audience and the artwork have an intimate affair when it comes into the gallery. They spend time looking at it. So the idea is that whatever my intentions were directing and creating the work a lot, it is then up to the audience to make their own meanings. It is very much important to me to create much more humble. humble. Conceptual art that is humble. That is not pretentious. That is not egalitarian that he tries to create extremely direct connections with audience in order to to inspire the audience in order to elevate the audience. In order to help the audience think. So the idea of conceptuality for me is to create a much more critical thinking between work and audience. Whatever the audience says, whatever the the reading is, whatever the interpretation is. Whereas it is100%, what I thought about, where it is 25%, what I thought about where it is completely different. That is all fair enough as long as it inspires people to think ideally and hopefully think becoming   better critical thinkers, better judgments. Mhm. Because again we're living in such a materialistic world. We are kind of this extreme materialism is working against thought. We're thinking less. Right?The idea of conceptual, for me, the idea of conceptual art is to help the audience become better thinkers, to help the audience become better judgments of the surroundings. Mhm. Of the condition, of the human condition, of the contemporary state, of the human condition. It is a matter of creating thought, inspirations. That is how I see conceptual. That is how I do my conceptual, always with regard to being humble in terms of who I am as an artist, but always creating a focusing on creating much more inspiration towards, making a better world towards criticizing a lot of things that are wrong with the   world.  

帕诺斯：这个“观念”这个概念要回到物与意义的关系，对，它将观念带入现实的事物之中，但对人们、对观众又有着别的意义，所以我首要的观念，就是去创造联结，创造艺术作品与观众之间的语境，同时，作为艺术家我认为自己是一个创造者，但我也很能理解观众，我很能理解这种关系，一种三角关系，在艺术家艺术作品与观众，之前的三角关系，但是根据后结构主义理论权力在观众那里，进入画廊，观众与作品有一种亲密关系，他们花时间观看，所以无论我的主观意图，怎样引导和创造了作品，都应当由观众自己创造意义，这对我来说很重要，我很谦虚观念艺术要谦虚，别浮夸，别精英，要创造与观众的联系，激发观众，提升观众，促进观众思考，所以观念性对我来说是一种作品与观众之间的批判性思考，无论观众说什么怎样阅读怎么解释，无论是理解了百分百我想说的，还是25%我想说的，那都是不同的，观众去概念化地思考，并且，或许更能批判性地思考，更有判断力，这就够了，是，因为，我要再次强调，我们生活在一个物质主义的世界里，我极端的物质主义，对抗着思考，我们思考得更少了，对吧？“观念”，对我来说，观念艺术，就是要帮助观众成为更好的思考者，帮助观众更好地作出判断，对周遭、对环境、对人类状况、对当代状态、对人类状态这其实是创造思想、还有灵感，这就是我的对“观念”的看法，这也是我做观念艺术的方法，作为艺术家，我总是很谦虚，但是一直致力于创造更多的灵感以创造更好的世界，批判我们世界的错误。

Zachariah Zhou：You mentioned um...This uh concept, say the concept.Can we make it equal as the idea? So I have a, I have a sharp question for you. So using the concept,using the concept as the foundation for the artwork, the Platonism pyramid. So say the idea,  say the disco ball. So the disco ball is not the the most real. The most real is the idea of the disco ball, right? So, and then the pyramid goes down, then is the copy or the photograph or the illustration of the disco. So it makes the pyramid. This methodology of using the concept, the idea first to guide the art work. Do you think is a very traditional methodology of using the like say I have the realist idea and this idea is the most real and then the audiences must read or like say like get the idea of the conceptual art and then this art is finally like finish the loop. Would you think this methodology is kind of not challenging? It is it is not only that it is.  

渣克周：你提到“概念”（concept），“概念”这个词，可以等同于“观念”（idea）吗？其实我有一个十分尖锐的问题，把概念这个词作为作品的基础，你知道，柏拉图的“金字塔”，“理念”（idea）比如说那个迪斯科球，那个球不是最真实的，最真实的其实是那个球的理念，对吧？然后，从金字塔下来是对于球的理念的摹本或影像，这样就构成了“金字塔”，这个神话以及“观念引导艺术作品”的看法，你觉得不是很传统吗？比如说，我有一个理念，它是最真实的，观众阅读，或是获得观念艺术的这个理念，然后艺术最终完成了闭环，你难道不认为这种方法论，并不具备挑战性吗？并不仅仅是这样的。

Panos：You're absolutely right that, obviously by I'm using objects, but by using objects and read anything useless, I focus on what they represent. Yes. But then there are many layers of signification that are happening with every and this is something I realized, but I was doing it unconscious. Or subconscious. So there's always many levels of signification in semiotics will call them the denotation and connotation and second level. So there are many layers that are happening at the same time. This also describes the process of what I'm intending to create, the experience that I'm intending to create between artwork and audience. The first layer is always a humorous one. The humorous there is a bit of humor, there is always a bit of playfulness. This is not something I intend to do. This is something I realized along the process of what I'm doing. Because at the same time, every piece it represents who I am. So it is part of me. At the same time, though, this idea of this first layer of humorous or playfulness between objects or a composition serves to break the ice,  to break the ice between audience and looking at the work. Because of what's gonna happen later. So first of all, it is like it is as you meet a woman. You say a joke, you break ice. you meat somebody stranger, we are strangers when somebody sees that my work is a stranger. So I'm trying to create an intimacy through humor, through playfulness. That is the first layer layer of how signification works with my work. But then again, when we go down, when things go deeper, when we go into a computational level things, but we become much more serious, much more critical. So the first instance, you see something. Yes,  it's I'm much more relaxed now. And this idea of relaxation  enables the audience to go deeper into the much more critical meanings that I'm conveying with every work. It is this idea of layers laying down from the object, what it means, going down into what the  combination of the object means as a first layer of interpretation. And they're going even a deeper  meaning of what it means. Critically, if you have second thoughts, and if you spend some time, you need to spend some time you need to, it's not instgramable selfie, social media selfie, kind of work. The more you start looking at it, the more the second layer of thinking comes and that usually is much more critical. It's much more serious.

帕诺斯：是的，很明显，我在使用物，通过使用物将它们无用化，我关注他们所展现的状况，但同时存在着多种意义，这是我认识到的，我这么做是无意识的，或者说是潜意识的，所以一直存在着多种意义，在符号学上我们称作意义与内涵，所以同时有着多种层面的意义在发生，这也描述了我试图创造一个过程，去创造一种作品与观众之间的经验，第一层始终是幽默，非常幽默，很好玩，但我意不在此，我只是在做的过程中意识到了，因为同时我所呈现的所有作品，都是我的一部分，但同时第一层始终是幽默，或者游戏，它起着破冰的作用，打破作品与观众之间的坚冰，当观众在看它们的时候，这样之后的故事才会发生，所有首先就好比你遇到一个姑娘你说了个笑话你破冰了，你遇到一个陌生人，当一个人在看我的作品时，我们是陌生人，我试图通过幽默，通过游戏拉近他们，关于作品意义的运作，这是第一层，但是当我们下降到更深处我们就到了事物的观念层次就更加严肃，更有批判性，第一眼，你看过去，你很放松，但是这种轻松，又使观众进入更深层更批判的意义中，在每个作品中，我所传达的都是物内部的意义，也就是说进入物的深处里面的意义，不同于表面的意义，这是比表面更深的意义，你要反思花时间，你要花时间反思，它不是像朋友圈里的自拍、社交媒体的自拍，不是像那种作品，你越是看，第二层的意义就越是涌现，这一层是更具批判性的，很严肃。

Zachariah Zhou：So let's talk about show this series the two photographs and one signifier. So would you elaborate on these three works?   

渣克周：我们来谈谈这个系列的作品，有两幅图片和一个单词，你能具体谈谈这三幅作品吗？

Panos：These are extremely, highly signifying pieces,  the pieces of are talking about how there are many layers of many different layers of interpreting ideas, Right. Ideas that are lost. Ideas that are new. And again, the idea of the work is that it  has to reflect contemporary life. But at the same time, it's very important for art, for me to create a critic about what is wrong with the world, how we can make it better. Here, for instance, we're talking about 2 pieces, two images that are an interpretation of the word “connection”. Again, the playfulness here is that always the smaller in real life is much bigger. Yes. The big remarks, the bigger representation of the image, usually it's much more smaller in real life. So not only and the smaller remarks is much more materialistic is, much more superficial. Mhm. It is their own interpretation or the negative aspects of how we see  connection being caught up in our mobile phones and spending too much time, Mhm. Within a screen or in front of a screen. At the same time, the bigger image is the more humbling amounts, is the more real improvement of what and how we should view and understand uh the values that lie behind this word, playing a double play of juxtaposing images, and also on another layer, commenting about the idea of what is big is usually regarded as important, the size of the large,  the larger, the better, because that again, layers back into this idea of how much materialistic we are. So something small is regarded in significant, by definition, something big is regarded as very important. But that is a very superficial way of judging the world. Mhm. You need to go deeper and  understand how many are, what is important, what is not important, what is forgotten? What is the newly dazzling and flamboyan impressively important. But it is not. Would you say you you're like offering options. Yes, new options definitely, but also putting things into the duality of comparison. Mhm. The end of comparison. And there is a lot of juxtapositions happening within my work between comparing things that obviously that most of the times are contradictory. I'm just, again, using this idea to to to help the audience see how they can gain wisdom. Right? Comparison is one of the biggest sources of wisdom. So by comparing things, by  juxtaposing things, you create much, more and elaborate, but easier at the same time way of understanding the world of judging the world of seeing what is good, what is wrong, what is nice, what is. But it's kind of like returning to the childhood like when you learn things you compare. Absolutely,  absolutely. There is a lot of again and again, that also reflects to who I am as an artist. When I was a person, there is the inner child within me lives very strong, lives very vividly. So in this is very much more important. Absolutely. For me, you're trying to bring the audiences back like to their fundamental recognition level, like using the the, like the the, primitive methodology to acquire knowledge, kind of for me, it's like that. Absolutely. And it is this simplicity of the childhood. It is like what Picasso said where they to think like the mind of the child is the most difficult and the most important, the most holy. For the time of my life, he said it took him a whole life to think like a child.  

帕诺斯：这三幅作品都非常符号化，我们说的是一个作品有着不同层次的观念意义，旧的观念，新的观念，并且作品的观念必须反映当代生活，但同时对我来说，艺术必须要有一种批判，批判这个错误的世界，以及如何让它变得更好。比如说，这里有两幅图，这两张图在解释，“连接”这个词，然后其中的游戏在于生活中真正小的被放大，而大的在图片上被表现得大的在真实的生活中往往更小，所以不仅仅是说，小的是更物质化的、更表面的，作品要说的是一个消极的意义，“连接”如何在手机中完成，并占据了我们的实践 ，在屏幕里，在屏幕前，同时，大的图片，表达了更谦虚的一面，那就是我们应该如何改善，我们应该如何看待和理解，这个词背后的那些价值，通过将两幅图并置玩一个双重的游戏，在另一个层面，指出大图表达的观念要更加重要，尺寸越大就越好，因为它引导我们认识我们有多么物质主义，所以小的东西才更重要，按照定义大的更重要，但这是很肤浅的，判断世界的方式你要更深入，理解到什么重要，什么不重，什么被遗忘了，什么让你眼花缭乱，什么东西光鲜亮丽，实则华而不实，新的选择同时也是把事物放入一个双重的比较种种是比较之后，有很多的比较和并置，在作品自身之中，比较那些很多时候，明显矛盾的事物，我只是在用观念帮助观众获得智慧，比较是智慧最大的源泉之一，所以通过比较事物并置事物，你创造了许多许多，但同时创造了一种理解世界判断世界的方式，什么是好的，什么不好，就像是回到童年，当你学东西是你进行比较，你一遍遍地比较，这也反映出我是一个怎样的艺术家，当我作为人的时候，内里有一个孩童住在我身体里，非常明显，非常真切，这很重要，在我看，你在试图把观众带回到他们最根本的认知层面，使用最原初的方法来获取知识，对我来说是这样的，就是这种儿童一样的简单，就像毕加索说的像儿童一样思考是最难的，最重要的，也是最神圣的，“我用一生才学会像儿童一样绘画。”他是这么说的。 

Zachariah Zhou：I have another doubt um, which is like, I think this question, has uh has been there for quite a long time since the like the exchange of art like internationally,  which is language, which is also part of your work, actually. So say, because we're in China. So most Chinese people don't  actually understand English. How would you find your work lies in this huge gap  between Chinese and English? Say this tunnel vision. I know the Chinese is Guan Kui Xiao Ying. It's like seeing from a tunnel, right? So it's been being described like to say you have a very narrow vision or you're being very obsessed for one thing. But for a audience, regular Chinese audience like even though they know art a little, but when they see the English, they instantly confuse. And there this, even though they can have their phones and translation, even AR translation on their phone, but you think they lost that   instant feeling for this work? How would you think is?  

渣克周：我还有个疑惑就是，我想这个问题有很长一段时间了，那就是艺术交流，语言问题，它也是你作品的一个部分，好比说，我们现在在中国多数中国人并不懂英语，你觉得你的作品如何跨越中文和英文，比如这个“tunnel vision”，中文是叫“管窥效应”吧，就像是管中窥物，对吧，说的是视野狭小，被一件事所纠缠，但对观众来说，一般的中文观众，尽管他们会懂一些艺术，但当他们看到英文的时候，他们马上就会感到困惑，并且即使他们能用手机翻译，甚至是AR翻译，但你会觉得他们会失去对作品的直觉吗？你怎么看？ 

Panos：Yes, potentially, absolutely right. This work relies a lot on language as a medium of delivering the concept. It is,  unfortunately, in English. It is unfortunate in English, but this is not the main bulk of my work. The main bulk of my work plays with objects that are universally understood and connecting people in the same way. Right. So my meanings are… Of course I'm living in China for 10 years, something much inspired by the condition of  china, by the change in the rapid the amazingly transformation of it. But at the same time, I think my meanings are universal because they are playing with universal objects, objects that are simple, right? It just happened that here we play with the keyboard that happens to be in English.

帕诺斯：也许会吧！作品是基于语言的，语言是传递概念的中介，很遗憾，我用的是英语 ，很遗憾，但这不是主要的主体，我作品的主体在于带有一般意义的物，它能够超越语言，将人们联系在一起，我想说的是，我在中国生活了十年，很多观念都是受到中国的感发，中国快速的变化惊人的转变，但同时我认为我传达的意义是普世的，这些意义与普遍的物相关，物是很简单的，不是吗？事情是中国发生，我们用键盘表达的是英文。

Zachariah Zhou：It just happened that here we play with the keyboard that happens to be in English. So you mentioned China like the Chinese thing. So would you say because it's also part of my question actually like how would you think like? Because you don't speak Chinese and you live in China for like how many years, 10 years. So then how like as a foreigner, how would you. Say, would you for before I ask that question, I should ask, do you think you understand Chinese? I mean Chinese people, I feel them. You feel them. I do feel them. I don't need to understand the language to feel, because you mentioned before like say you have a lot of good friends, which you really in 10 years, you don't know like how to communicate. They don't speak English, you don't speak Chinese and then, you are good friends, how? I think it's the same with the work. How would you establish that, say, the trust or establish that connection between the two semiotic world and establish that bridge. Like, how would you?

渣克周：你提到中国，中国的东西，我的问题是，因为你不会说中文，你又在中国生活了十年，那么作为一个外国人，我想在问这个问题之前，我想我应该问问你觉得你懂中国吗？我说的是，中国人你感受他们？不需要懂得这门语言你就能感受因为你提到你有很多好朋友，在这十年里，你不知道如何沟通，他们不会说英语，你也不说中文，你们又是很好的朋友，这是怎么做到的？我觉得这个跟作品是一样的，你怎么建立，在两个符号世界之间建立真正的联系和桥梁？

Psnos：There are two levels here. There are two different slightly dimensions of an answer. The first one is that we're living in a very visual world, Visual, Okay. We live in a world that even words are being transformed into images. The idea is that the visuality  that we're living in a visual everybody lives in visuality, Right. By communicating visually, I have my in my data bank of in my pallet, if you like, instead of colors, I have a universal called language without objects, because we're all extremely materialistic, whether you are in China, whether you are in Greece, where you are whenever wherever in the world. That's first thing. And the other thing is that artists and the world and the whole idea of process and ideology of art. For me, it is people that are very…they have a heightened sense of empathy. They have a heightened sense of sensitivity, That again, transcends barriers of language, transcends borders. You think so?  Because we're all human, so my art is a lot about humanism. And we're being all human. And I know a lot China is a very special case never before. A culture with such a long and amazingly beautiful history has been evolving so fast faster than ever before. That has never happened in the history of the of the human race. And that is an extremely interesting  phenomenon that has it's own special circumstances and developments. But at the end of the day, we're all human. And even in my work, when I see and sometimes I have to compare different cultures, I have to compare different languages. There is much more similarities than there are differences. So to give you a very simple example, I come from Greece,  which is size wise almost the opposite of China. Exactly. Also an extremely far away place of China. However, the similarities are found between. Greece and China are astonishing, not only because we have a similar, long history filled with great philosophers, filled with philosophy. At the same time had the same ideas like Confucius and Plato. They lived at the same time period, and the right things are almost identical um. You see, language is very nice. It's very important. It's very rich, especially when you write poetry and absolutely respect to it. But the meanings behind the language and the feelings behind the language, transcend.

帕诺斯：有两个方面，些许不同的角度 来回答你的问题，第一个是我们生活在一个图像世界中，我们的世界中，文字也被转化成了图像，所以答案在于图像，我们生活在图像中，每个人都生活在图像中，我们通过图像进行交流，在我的数据银行里，在我的脑海里，存储的不是颜色，而是一种没有对象的语言，因为我们都及其物质主义了，无论你在中国，还是在希腊，不论你在世界的何时，何地，这是一方面。另一方面是艺术家与世界，艺术这整个词与意识形态，对我来说，人们非常能够共情，他们很有共情能力，这个超越了语言的障碍，因为我们都是人，所以我的作品都是关乎人的。当然，我很了解中国十分特别，从来没有一个文明，有如此灿烂的历史，同时又发展地前所未有地快，这在人类历史上是前所未有的，这个现象太有趣了，中国有自己的特殊环境，有很多发展变化，但归根结底，我们都是人，就我的作品而言，当我们看作品时，有时候我们要比较不同的文化，要比较不同的语言，但更多的是相似，而不是不同。就比如说，我来自希腊，非常小的国家，简直就是中国的反面，并且离中国非常远，但是希腊与中国之间的相似性，是非常惊人的，不仅仅是因为我们都有悠久的历史，有伟大的哲学家，同时观念也十分相似，就像孔子和柏拉图，他们几乎生活在同一历史时期，在相同的事物上几乎有着同样的看法，所以，语言非常美妙，非常重要，非常丰富，尤其是诗歌的语言最值得尊敬，但语言背后的意义，语言背后的情感，超越了语言的樊篱。

Zachariah Zhou：Can I say you mean the language and semiotics are just like tools.  

渣克周：语言与符号只是工具可以这么说吗？ 

Panos: Yes. So language is one semiotic system. Visual communications is another semiotic system. In another way to put this is like the image has already become the reality. So exactly, but that's what I'm trying to put people to put a barrier here, to put the barrier here, because when the image becomes more important than the meaning, when the image becomes more important than reality, where our own personal, physical, meaning image as in selfish as in a social media portrait, becomes more important than who we really are. That is a problem. I'm trying to restore balance. I respect images. I use them as a vehicle, but I'm trying to restore balance to the importance of the spiritual meaning behind it.  

帕诺斯：没错，语言是一个符号系统，视觉则是另一个符号系统,也就是说图像已经变成实在本身了，所以我试图在人们面前放置一个障碍物，因为图像已经变得比意义更重要了，当图像变得比实在本身更重要的时候，我们自己个人的、物理的意义图像作为自拍，成为社交媒体中的肖像，它变得比我们自身更加重要，这就是问题所在我试图去恢复一种平衡，我尊重图像，我把它们作为一种工具，试图恢复一种平衡，强调后面精神意义的重要性。 

Zachariah Zhou：In the end of the interview, maybe would you say for your current practices? Would you extend it? Or would you more likely to be like overthrowing the previous like methodology of working? Are you gonna challenge yourself of this methodology of using the using semiotics and using languages. Is there gonna be a change in this working methodology or no?

渣克周：采访最后我想问一问，你当前的实践有所拓展吗？你有想抛弃之前的工作方法吗？你是否想挑战你自己抛弃符号学和语言学的方法论，你工作的方法论会有所改变吗？ 

Panos：Who knows what the future has installed for anybody, including me? But I have to say that so far,   semiotics is the closest thing I have, is the way I record the world, is the way I'm creating. So I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future. I mean changing, but it is also something that is evolving within the concept, within the structure and the system of the periodic ideology. I'm always evolving and creating new versions of it. So I  have no who knows what the future will bring, but I don't think I can not, I can not say that changing.

帕诺斯：谁知道呢？没有谁能知道以后会怎么样？我也是，不过我要说，符号学是离我最切近的是我记录世界的方式，是我创作的方式，所以，在可见的未来我不觉得会有什么变化，但确实这个概念一直在变化，在系统内部，在周期性的意识形态内变化，我也一直在改变，不断创造新的版本，所以没有人知道未来会怎么样，我不能说，不能说我的方法改变了。

Zachariah Zhou：My last question is personal, ART or Tequila, which one you prefer better?

渣克周：最后是一个私人问题，艺术还是龙舌兰，你挑哪个？

Panos：Can I make art with Tequila?

帕诺斯：我可以用龙舌兰来搞艺术吗？